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Tumultuously interesting from the start, Wallice has always stoked a feeling of humor in her music. With a generous understanding of life's surreal pathing, a mischievous wink amongst other lost pop songs, and a comfort in sadness, her musical journey thus far has culminated in her debut album, The Jester. A circus ring of moody pop excellence, true to her wondrously honest lyrics of the past, Wallice approaches this album with a maturation, a continuation of her prior best with enhanced, elegant wisdom. 

The Jester is a must listen, an obvious ‘best of’ album candidate, and while Wallice’s sound has always been earnest, crafty & self aware, this work is at its best as it leaves the listener unresolved: a joke you want to tell but can’t be sure it’s funny…

OnesToWatch: Okay, I'll jump right into it. Why do you do what I think is the world's hardest and most difficult job? 

Wallice: Making music? I think it's actually the easiest job in the world and it's not a real job. I literally always say how it's not a real job. Because I used to work at a salon and have to deal with mean ladies all the time. And I don't have to deal with mean ladies anymore, so it's easy to me. 

Okay. So music is easier than salon work. That's a nice little header for me. I'll steal that.

I'm lucky to only have had to work in a salon and not have to do food service or other customer service. Being a musician is so funny. I was talking about it recently with Mikey who co-produced my album and he lives in New York. And New York and LA have very different work schedules, music wise. Since the time change, sessions end at like five, maybe six. They're like, well, should we call it? It's like, we started at one, and I'm the one to call it too. Like, I don't like working when it's dark. It's just like a really laid back, barely working vibe. It's really funny now that it's the end of the year too. So many people are like, I'm so burnt out. And like, these aren’t real jobs. Like, I'm really sorry. Like, I know more people work than me in music, like, people work harder and more. But every time I do work, it's just like, I feel, I feel very lucky. And even touring, I feel very lucky. It doesn't feel like a job.

Well, I love that for you because that's not how most people think. Do you feel the pressure to perform and write and all that stuff? 

Sometimes I have a session scheduled and I'm like, I truly don't even know what I would write about right now, I'm kind of burnt out on writing. But then, even going there and meeting someone is great, even if you don't make anything good. I have this weird thing in my brain I've realized: recently, the more I dread a session or dread working that day, the better the thing I make. It's really bad because I'm just lazy. It's not that it's a hard job. I just want to lay in bed all day sometimes. And then if I'm really looking forward to a session, like I had a session over the weekend with two of my really good friends, and the whole day I was like, I don't even know.

I'm always curious about laziness because I think laziness oftentimes leads to procrastination. And I often find procrastination is like the Genesis of great art. So when you say lazy, do you mean like, you're not motivated to do that one specific thing, but you have energy and time to do other things? Like, is it sort of like an avoidance thing, or is it genuinely like, I am not leaving my couch?

I think it's an avoidance thing. I'm like, okay, I know I have to be at the recording studio all day. I'm like, I'd rather be making ceramics. I'd rather be taking my dog on a hike. I'd be cooking a pie, like things that don't need to be done at that very moment.

So I think it's avoidance, but it's necessary somehow. I realized that's like a very human coping mechanism. You know, like we sort of get motivated to do anything when we have to do something we don't want to do, or dread doing something. 

You know, I hate the word maturation, but there's not a lot of great synonyms for it. But, it definitely feels like you're sort of coming into your own. And I love when artists describe that your first album's about finding your audience, and then your second work's about finding yourself and your sound and what you're really comfortable with. So for The Jester, this work, what do you take away from this whole process and what you've learned about yourself? 

Maturing as an artist happens with every artist. And I think you can hear it so clearly from my first EP, even to the second and third. Like the third compared to the first has matured so much, and then my album compared to all three of the EP's, even the latest one, is just such a next step up. And when I think about making music and albums, it's hard because I'm 26 now and Punching Bag was when I was 22. And so that's four years of just EPs and singles and figuring it out. And I would have loved to have my debut album when I was like 18. I've been able to build from there, but I've realized like, I'm so proud of this album, The Jester. And I think it definitely wouldn't be anything like what it is now if I did make it when I was 18 or 20 or 22. I needed that time to grow and to make something that I'm this proud of. yeah, I think sound wise, lyric wise it’s matured.

Maturity is such a complex word. Everytime I dig into my thesaurus it's always evolutionary and gets into biology and I'm like, okay, I don't want to describe people as science projects and stuff, but, you know, we are living kind of an experiment about ourselves, right? Learning who we are, our place.

I don't think that's a bad word to describe it at all. If somebody's like, how's this album compared to the last EP? I'm like, it's more mature. It's more thought out.

It's also one of those things where, again, using like a food analogy, if you get better at something, it doesn't mean your prior meals were terrible. But I feel sometimes by saying maturation, like there's this assumption that you weren’t doing it right before, which is clearly not the case. Especially if the path thing is, like you said, you wish you could have written this at 18, but that probably wouldn’t have been possible. It wouldn't have been anything like it is now. 

And that's okay. It would have been fine then too, but I think it's, yeah, it's all meant to be. It's all where it's supposed to be.

Digging into the process a little bit: structurally, I feel like in your music, there seems to be lot more elements and influences that you are either more comfortable with and you were less revealing if they were priorly influencing you. What makes you more comfortable? Is it just the kind of thing you're now confident in your songwriting to the point where you're willing to sort of explore and experiment more? I know you have a great producer/collaborator on this. Is it that you're now willing and wanting other people to kind of push you and sort of seek out a new voice within yourself or boundaries? How would you describe this album as a separator from your prior EPs and process? 

I made my EPs mostly with my friend David Marinelli. He's produced everything I have out, everything I've worked on. And I was just really comfortable working with him. But then throughout these last few years, since I started writing for this album like two and a half years ago, I started branching out and having sessions with random people. It's a very strange part of the job, where I just go to somebody's house or studio and I've never met them. And literally it’s the same thing each time. You go at like one or two, middle of the day. It's not an early job. And then you sit down and you talk for like 30 minutes and get to know each other a little bit. And then they go, well, should we write a song? And then they're like, how do you like to work? And just play like a guitar loop or piano loop or a drum loop. Then somehow a song is made ,most of the time. It was a process of learning how to do that with new people, or just by myself, as well. That was writing wise and then soundwise, David and I had never made an album before. We knew we wanted to bring in someone who knew how to make an album or more of an experience. And so we brought our friend, Mikey Freedom Hart. He was very supportive of my music and just a great person. And he agreed to co-produce the album and he just knew how to record. He's been doing it much longer than us. 

I'd always wanted to make songs that sound like this album, with a lot of instrumentation. That was the goal of this album. To have flute, French horn, saxophone, trumpet, violin. I grew up playing classical orchestra in school and jazz bands and stuff, so I love instruments and sounds. Having the ability to record like that led to me naturally growing and knowing what I want as an artist and how to work as the artist I am.

Yeah, it's wonderful. I'm just reading the credits of the prior albums, it’s crazy. Getting to be the orchestra geek who can now incorporate all those instruments into your album, that must be so much fun. It's like such a form of play. 

Yeah! We recorded the album mostly at Mikey's studio in New York and in his building, there's a group called So Percussion. They play at Carnegie Hall and stuff. It's just like a percussion group. There's no drumming, you know, you have to be hitting something to make the sound. So they had their warehouse in that building. And they let Mikey go borrow whatever we wanted. So like on the song, “Deadbeat”, there's omglocken. different like different pitched bells, bell-shaped instruments. And then there's xylophone, vibraphone, four-foot kick drum. So that was really fun. 

Awesome. You're speaking my language because I'm a recovering drummer and like xylophone was the only way I really appreciated melody because I still need to like, I need to smash things. There's something very primal in me that needs to do that. So I love that. That's amazing. 

A couple more like contextual questions. When you write collections of work, mostly EPs obviously, this being your first album, I find artists kind of group themselves into two sort of categories. One, writes so many songs and editing becomes the most difficult part of the process. It's not necessarily song selection. It's like what to take away, what to not include. Others, they’ve got three songs in them every three months and after that they’re done. What was it like to put together an album? Did you have to edit a lot or was it more like you had to force yourself to create more?

I think in between both, honestly. wow. I don't overwrite. I finished recording this album in February and I took a lot of time off from creating music, up until fairly recently. And now I'm writing again and I have like half an album done. I do believe you should have a little bit more than what you need to really choose the best. But I also don't like to over-create. Like for this one, I knew 11 of the songs and I was like, okay, I just need like a couple more. Let's see what else we can make. And the last one, “Curtains to Close”, that's clearly opening the record. So I wanted that kind of feeling in a way. And so I wanted to make a “Curtains to Close” song. And so that one, I knew what I was seeking out to make. I definitely had more than 14 songs written for this album. But I kind of also while I was writing them knew like, I don't like this one enough to finish it. Or like this one has something, we gotta keep working. 

It sounds like you're good at self-editing. Not everyone's good at that. Now, you are this mature artist. You’re confident on every orchestral instrument. Do you think of albums as like chapters? Do you already have the next chapter in mind, or is this sort of like a time and place and it just lives and breathes on its own and then who knows what the next thing is? Or like getting into albums, especially if you like concept albums, like do they talk to each other? Do you talk to your future self or is this sort of like just a starting point and you'll see what happens next? 

I think this is a starting point. I don't know what the next thing will be, because this will have a life touring and during that time I imagine I'll write some things that are more evolved than I am now. I think as I'm writing right now, I’ve been thinking about how I am still at the same place in life as I was when I was making these songs. That one hasn't come out and blown up for me to change my life. So I still am in the same place. It's important for me not to keep writing the same thing over and over. And so it’s how to write about life changing when I feel maybe that it's not yet. I'm not sure what the next chapter is gonna look like, but it's fun to write and see what comes from the depths of my brain. Is that the question or is that the answer? I think that's an answer.

Yeah, but I do think of it as chapters, like when I hear “Punching Bag” or “23” from my first EP, I think about being 22, but I feel so young, and not that I'm old now, but I feel like that's such a distance from the very beginning of my career. And this is the next beginning of my career. 

I love that. You sort of hinted at some existential qualifications when answering about your album. Do you have expectations for the work itself? Like is there some report card you already have stored up that you're going to grade yourself against in some fashion? 

Yeah, of course. I want it to be the biggest album ever. 

Okay, that's easy to do. 

I know, I'm very proud and confident in the work and in the album. I think if I didn't make it, I would love to listen to it. And that's an important part. I just hope that I'm able to find the audience because I have really amazing fans so far and it's pretty small in comparison to what it could be. And it's hard in this day and age to make it from zero to like being able to tour and live off music. 

That's funny because my whole career I feel has been in some way trying to solve that problem. And the more I quote unquote know, the less I understand. So good luck with it.

Yeah, big jumps. But I don't know success. I just hope it grows. I hope I'm able to play bigger venues. I don't expect anything too big. I also love to play festivals, so hopefully I'll get on some festival runs. That's my goal with this. 

I trust you will. And I look forward to seeing you at some cool festival. Last couple of questions, and again, thank you for being so generous with your time. A lot going on in the world. A lot going on with you. What do you do to relax? I heard ceramics. I heard pies. Clearly you have some options.

I make ceramics. When I grew up, my mom had a kiln in her garage. So she makes ceramics too. But I got back into it like a little bit before COVID started. And then during COVID, I just really had all the time in the world to get better at it. And so it's one of my main hobbies that I spend my free time doing. There's a studio for like 10 minutes from my house I go to, and they have wheels and kilns and I just love to make things like mugs and paint mugs. I just got back some of my mugs. 

Super cool. Are these gonna be limited edition merch items? 

Yeah. It's just fun to see what I can make. It's very calming, doing the wheel or just building. Two to four hours can pass by really fast. I also like to cook. I like to rock climb. And hang out with my dog. 

I love that. You rock climb, like literally go outside on rocks? 

Indoor. 

Okay, so bouldering or? 

I do the top rope indoors. But you have to find someone to belay you. But yeah, my boyfriend and I boulder. 

He's not your belay bestie either? 

He doesn't love heights. So he's like, I can belay you but I don't want to go up. 

Well, that doesn't feel fair. 

I do accept the offer. But usually I just boulder. 

That's awesome. I love bouldering too. It's so much fun. It's like mental, physical chest kind of thing. 

And it's also really fun, we have so many friends that do it, so we'll be like, okay, we're going tomorrow at 11. Do you want to come? Then when you're resting, you just chat with your friends. 

Yeah, it is super social. Lots of like chalky talk, you know? Okay, last couple of questions. If you were to, since you are a cook, craft the perfect meal to listen to The Jester, like appetizer main course dessert. And if I'm allowed to have a beverage, what would they be?

Okay, well the beverage would either be a passion fruit martini, if you want alcohol, because that's just because that's my favorite. 

I'll take it. 

And then non alcoholic would be a Shirley Temple. Because it's red and The Jester to me is very red. And then appetizer. I don't know why I'm leaning towards like Italian cuisine even though, Japanese food's my favorite, but I don't think Japanese food fits. I think naturally it would be like a meat sauce pasta or lasagna as the main. And then jesters are very Renaissance era. So maybe a cabbage appetizer? It's kind of all over the place. And then dessert, a banana split. They're quite whimsical. 

We should do like a pop-up for your album. That menu, I'm there for it. Last question, at OnesToWatch we selfishly love when artists put us on to other artists. So who are your ones to watch? Like who do you listen to right now that we should be listening to? 

My friends’ band Close By. I had them open for me for a show in New York like two years ago and they put out an album this year. It's really good. I also just don't think Sam Evian has enough recognition. He's been going at it for so long and has definitely a lot of success, but I think he should be massive. His music is so beautiful. And Devon Again is really good pop. Underrated pop.  

Well, thank you so much for your time.

Yeah, thanks for having me. 

And preemptively congrats.